Mwg o goffi

My old university friend Bill Szuch, now producer of the UkeTube channel,  has posted online a few snippets of a lecture at Chautauqua by historian Timothy Snyder. I think it is fair to say that Snyder and I have very different views of the conflict in Ukraine. He has acquired a reputation as one of the more outspoken supporters of the Maidan revolution and as a fierce opponent of ‘Russian aggression’. He says a lot of silly things, in my opinion, but in this segment he outdoes himself. For according to Snyder, Ukraine ‘is the one country in Europe which is actually a bilingual political society’, and ‘There is no other bilingual capital in Europe’ other than Kiev.

The first statement will come as something of a surprise to the Swiss, who have a trilingual political society, with German, French, and Italian all having equal status at the level of the federal government (Romansh has a somewhat lower status). It will also surprise the good citizens of Luxembourg who likewise speak three languages (German, French, and Luxembourgish), and those of Malta (where 100% of the population speaks Maltese, 88% of the population speaks English, and 66% speaks Italian), as well as those of Belgium (French, Flemish, and German, although the first two dominate).

As for capital cities, the inhabitants of the City of Luxembourg might be excused for being a little offended by Snyder’s denial of their multilingual status. The same is true for Riga (somewhere between 30 and 50% Russian-speaking depending on which statistics you look at, and with a Russian-speaking mayor), and Tallinn (a little under 40% Russian-speaking). And if you want to bring capital cities of national autonomous regions into the picture, then Barcelona, a city in which almost everybody is fluent in both Catalan and Spanish, surely counts too.

Snyder remarks that in Kiev you can order a coffee in Ukrainian and be answered in Ukrainian, or order it in Russian and be answered in Russian. I’ve never actually tried ordering coffee in Flemish in Brussels (80% French-speaking and 20% Flemish speaking), but I doubt that you would encounter too many problems. Moreover, Brussels is officially bilingual. All signs and public services are in both languages. The same is true of the city of my youth – Cardiff (89% English-speaking, 11% Welsh-speaking). To be fair, if you tried asking for a ‘mwg o goffi’ in Cardiff city centre, the barista would quite probably stare at you in an odd way. But out on the streets you’ll find all the signs are in Welsh. The city is quite energetically bilingual.

Back when we were students, Bill introduced me to Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor’s Politics of Recognition. A lot of political strife is not about material objectives, but about a desire for official recognition of one’s self-perceived identity. Contrary to Snyder’s assertion, bilingual or multilingual political societies are actually quite common in Europe, as indeed they are elsewhere in the world (Canada and Kazakhstan come immediately to mind). Moreover, those countries enjoy a major advantage over Ukraine in that the various languages of political society are officially recognized and protected by law. This is not the case in Ukraine. ‘Multinational societies can break up,’ writes Taylor,’ in large part because of a lack of (perceived) recognition of the equal worth of one group by another.’ Ukraine is a case in point.

Advertisements

48 thoughts on “Mwg o goffi”

  1. It is somewhat hard for me to get “uketube”. Some parts are quite interesting, some heavily propagandistic and/or plain wrong( like those “did you know that Kiev was Europes largest city in the 11th century?” Or, “did you know that Ukraine is Europes largest country?” Well, I dont because neither is true.).

    Like

    1. Ukraine IS the largest country fully within Europe with a size of 603,628 sq km. France is second largest with 551,695 sq km. Russia and Kazakhstan are bigger but they are both more in Asia than in Europe. W.E.D Allen claimed in his book entitled “The Ukraine: A History” that Kiev had a population of 100,000 people in the 11th century and was one of Europe’s largest cities. The same is claimed by historian Orest Subtelny. Kiev was the capital of Kievan Rus which was one of, if not the largest, kingdom in Europe at the time. Therefore, having the largest city in Europe would not be a surprise.

      Like

      1. If you trust Wikipedia, then the largest cities in Europe in 1000 AD were: Constantinople, 500,000; Cordoba, 450,000; and Palermo, 350,000. In 1100 AD the largest cities were: Constantinople, 300,000; Palermo, 150,000; Thessaloniki, 150,000; and Kiev, 100,000. So Kiev, while one of the largest by 1100, was never number one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_cities_in_history#Timeline_From_Roman_Empire_to_Modern_Age_0_-_1800.C2.A0A.D.

        Like

      2. Dave, don’t talk sense like that here. I just began trying to communicate illogically with pro-Kremlin folks here. Don’t mess it up with sensible reason and basic facts.

        Like

      3. According to your rule (“fully within Europe”), France does not count as well because a a part of its territory (more than a sixth) is non-European.
        The same goes for Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands as well.

        Like

      4. Europen territory of Russia is much, much bigger than the whole of Ukraine.

        Or are implying that Russia itself is an “Asian” country?

        Like

  2. On Snyder’s remarks, it is shocking to see a ‘historian’ make these kind of factually wrong statements. I grew up in Belgium, studied in Brussels. The city is bilingual French and Flemish – although you can get by just as well with English. Since he uses it to smooth people into his lecture, it makes the entire lecture heavily suspect. To try and reach Ukrainian statehood back beyond 1918 and set it off against Russian statehood is wrong. Today’s split, and this so-called revolution, is the historic anomaly; it is the extremist position. The extreme propagandistic nature of UkeTube shows that the Canadian diaspora actually have fanned these extremist fumes as a typical diaspora does, increasingly unaware of the complexities on the ground, seeing things black and white.

    Like

    1. “Extreme propagandistic nature of UkeTube…” Really? Don’t mistake the messenger for the message. Some of UkeTube’s biggest enemies are Ukrainians themselves, e.g. Ukrainian Canadian Congress, Paul Grod, etc..

      Some Ukrainians still bust my chops for taping Dr. Kuzio, Prof. Magocsi, and now most recently Paul Robinson’s “Russia, Ukraine, Donbas, & the Rebels” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mLfXcFZpu0) claiming that UkeTube was supporting a paid Kremlin apologizer, Russian sympathizer, etc.

      I have no idea whether Paul is on the payroll (I hope not) but as jarring as his remarks were for me and Ukrainian Canadians (sorry Paul, but I simply disagreed with your presentation) I’ll stand behind the recording.

      If you spend too much time holding up a magnifying glass to one particular part of any object, the sunlight will quickly twist and distort the image, eventually heating and burning the object. Take a step back and look at the larger picture, particularly the not so subtle components that aren’t easily categorized or quantified.

      Sure, this particular generation of Ukrainians Canadians may be a bit raucous. But you’ll have to forgive us for our lack of grace and consistency: This is our first war and military invasion by Russia.

      Like

      1. Interesting to hear that Grod doesn’t like UkeTube, and I’m pleased that you recognize his negative influence. Sadly, though, it is Grod and the UCC that the Canadian government listens to – indeed Harper took Grod with him on his trip to Ukraine not long ago.

        Like

      2. Let me clarify: It’s not so much that Grod, UCC, UNF, and certain individuals at the Ukrainian credit unions and local Ukrainian TV shows hate UkeTube and the people I tape. Rather, too many decision makers in these organizations are uncomfortable with the absence of control over the messenger and message. They possibly perceive UkeTube as a risk because they are used to “top-down” message distribution with positive content that is consistantly favourable for the Ukrainian community. So when someone raises questions, is politically incorrect, criticizes, or encourages change from the status quo for something more progressive they are cleaved from the heard.

        A recent example of this surrounded the many UkeTube videos addressing the controversy between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, its parishoners, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate (who is seen as a puppet of the Moscow Patriarchate, and thus Putin).

        I don’t think Grod wakes up in the morning and gleefully rubs his hands saying “I can’t wait to have a negative influence!” He isn’t like that and I think his heart is in the right place, but his head isn’t. The only conclusion I can draw from his behaviour over the past several years is that he is a corporate prostitute masked as a community activist.

        Paul, you were offended by my videos juxtaposing your remarks with Gen. Wesley Clark, President Obama, and Prof. Snyder? Those clips were directly inspired by the hypocrisy of Paul Grod, Prof. Luciuk, Ron Cahute, Yuriy Dyakunchak, and a couple of other Ukes.

        So, instead of being an activist donating his time, money and resources, Grod has monetized his position at the UCC by selling out the interests of the Ukrainian community for political and possibly personal financial gain (but that is a different subject derserved of a separate forum). As a result, rather than serving as the voice of the Ukrainian Canadian community in Ottawa, he has inverted the UCC to become the voice of the Harper government in the Ukrainian Canadian community.

        Good for a few, bad for most.

        Like

      3. No offence taken at the juxtapositions with Clark etc, except that you always put me first followed by them, which gave the impression that the whole point was to rebut me. It would have been better to mix it around.

        Like

      4. “I have no idea whether Paul is on the payroll (I hope not)”

        So, you have some doubt here?

        “Sure, this particular generation of Ukrainians Canadians may be a bit raucous. But you’ll have to forgive us for our lack of grace and consistency: This is our first war and military invasion by Russia.”

        Vasyl, pardon me for asking, but:

        1) With whom you, UkrCanadians, are fighting a war?

        2) What did Russia “military invade”?

        Thank you in advance.

        Like

      5. As I told Paul over dinner haver his presentation “Well Paul, if you’re on the payroll as folks have told me, you’re clever enough to get away with it”

        Russia invaded Ukraine, beginning with Crimea (it was in the news).

        Like

  3. Snyder also seems to have overlooked that one of the main reasons for the present fighting in Donbas is precisely that the Kiev regime officially refused to recognize Russian as an official language of Ukraine!

    Liked by 1 person

  4. You forgot Finland, where both Swedish and Finnish have been co-official ever since it gained independence.

    Snyder misleads in calling Ukraine a “bilingual political society.” It is a monolingual political society, with Ukrainian being the sole official language at the state level. As Tom Welsh points out, that’s part of the problem.

    Minor point: I don’t think there is actually such a language as Flemish. That’s just the local term for Dutch, and as far as I know the Belgian constitution refers to the language as Dutch (*nederlands*).

    Also, Cardiff sounds rather like Dublin, where Irish is co-official but almost no one speaks it.

    Like

  5. Okay, what about this one big elephant in the room?

    The Republic of Ireland.

    Strangely enough, “the language of the occupiers” is still widely used there. Not banned.

    Inconceivable, just inconceivable!

    Like

  6. I was aware of Finland and Ireland, but wanted to keep the blog post short. There also, of course, lots and lots of regional official languages in Europe (Frisian in the Netherlands, for instance), as well as officially bilingual non-capital cities (e.g. Valencia).

    Like

  7. 2Vasyl

    “Russia invaded Ukraine, beginning with Crimea (it was in the news).”

    Oh, yes, it was in the news all right. Everybody remembers the jackbooted Russian soldiers goosestepping on Simferopol’s streets and trampling all in their way, mass executions, looting and rapine that always come with the invading army. And Crimean population defiant to the invaders. And brave Ukrainian soldiers, who gave their lives to keep Crimean Ukrainian…

    What, no? It wasn’t like that at all?

    You said – “beginning with Crimea”. Did Russia invade some other part of Ukraine as well?

    Plus – will you answer my other question? About with whom you, Canadian citizens, are fighting a war?

    Like

    1. I don’t speak for the Ukrainian Canadian community, but some are fighting the war with Ukraine against Russia.

      I won’t state the obvious or connect the dots anymore for your questions. Too much other more important work to do.

      Like

      1. Still, I hope you will find some time (maybe later) to answer just a couple of questions, Vasyl.

        1) You are saying “some [Ukrainian Canadians] are fighting the war with Ukraine against Russia”. I.e. that they are members of the Volunteer Battalions, right? That they’ve come to Ukraine on their own and are not some part of Canadian hybrid warfare?

        2) Please, remind me, when this war of “Ukraine against Russia” has been announced? When did these two countries officially broke all of their diplomatic, economic, cultural etc. relations? Is there a martial law in effect in Ukraine?

        3) Finally – why Ukrainian military is “fighting against Russia” only in DonBass, but doesn’t try to retake Crimea?

        Like

      2. Dear Vasyl:

        “Sure, this particular generation of Ukrainians Canadians may be a bit raucous. But you’ll have to forgive us for our lack of grace and consistency: This is our first war…

        But not your grandparents first war, I reckon.
        *cough*cough*Bandera*cough*cough*

        (And I have a hunch that gramps was way raucuouser, less graceless, and less consistent than Generation X!)

        Like

  8. Just to intersect here, but from my, still quite pro Russian, pov. it seems to be contraproductive to shout down people like Vasyl. I vastly prefer Ukrainians who can articulate their positions, and frequently engage in discussions with those who hold divergent views, compared to those that dont.
    This is a mode of operation that should be reinforced, not shouted down.

    Like

  9. 2yalensis
    My grandparents were from Bila Tserkva and Poltava, not from Galicia, nor did they fight with Bandera.

    2A.I.Schmelzer
    According to Wikipedia, Ukraine is the largest European country(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_area)

    Russia is not the largest European country as it straddles both Europe and Asia (but perhaps that is semantics).

    2Lyttenburgh
    You want their activities, positions and GPS coordinates? Right. These threads are tedious.

    Thanks ladies, but this isn’t the 1st time that I’ve had to serve 3 females at the same time. Have more important things to do.

    Like

    1. The portion of Russia that is in Europe is VASTLY greater then Ukraine is.
      Claiming that Russia is not a part of Europe is akin to claiming that France, the Netherlands or Danemark arent, it is obviously simply semantics.

      The claim that Kiev ever was the largest European city is worse then semantic, it is simply wrong. Constantinopolis, Palermo or Corboda blow Kiev out of the water.

      I would fully invite you to look at any historic account of Kievan travels to Constantinopolis/Tsargrad. Contemporary reactions ranged from “oh my gosh its so big, lets become Christians like them” to “oh my gosh its so big and rich, lets plunder them and take their stuff!”. “Pah, smaller then glorious Kiev” never happened.

      The making of Urban europe [https://books.google.dk/books?id=-fm0wWa_L80C&pg=PA10&dq=largest+cities+in+europe+1400+AD&hl=da&sa=X&ei=dipYU6iVI8OrtAaE7oGoBw#v=onepage&q=Kiev&f=false] writes Kiev as 45.000 in 1100 which is pretty reasonable and still impressive (this is on par with f.e. contemporary Venice, and iirc more then Rome) given Eastern Europes population density at the time, as well as being a bit more then the double of Velikiy Novgorods Urban population.

      It is kind of interesting why the Urban patterns in medieval Eastern Europe (few but comparably big cities) and f.e. Germany (many smallish cities) were so different.

      Like

      1. I contacted the lady who created that piece on Kyiv. This is what she forwarded to me:

        “Bishop of Saxon Titmar of Merseburg, a German clergyman of the 11th century, in his Chronicles characterized Kyiv as “a large city with more than 400 churches, 8 marketplaces, and uncountable number of citizens”. The population of Kyiv in the 11th c. was 50 thousand people, while the population of London at that time was just 20 thousand. A medieval German chronicler called Kyiv “the competitor of Constan-tinople”.

        UkeTube tries not to judge the veracity of people’s content (though I may hold a personal opinion).

        Take for example my video of Paul who claims 90% of the rebel separatists fighting in Ukraine are Ukrainian. Compare that to Gen. Wesley Clark’s video where he claims 70-85% of the rebel separatists are Russian. Who do you believe, Prof. Robinson or Gen. Clark? Am I still a propagandist?

        Like

      2. Check out Wesley Clark’s report on Ukraine, and you will see that he got his information from briefings from the Ukrainian Army and Ukrainian officials, whom he seems to have believed 100%. I draw my conclusions by comparing such information with the reports of Western journalists (from respectable news agencies) who have spent time with the rebel forces, with numerous interviews and films of rebel forces (I have an advantage here over Clark in speaking Russian), and by comparing estimates of the number of Russian volunteers in Donbass with the estimated strength of rebel forces to produce a rough guide of their relative proportions. All those sources end up with the same result – the great majority of rebel troops are locals.

        Which methodology do you think is better?

        Like

      3. Paul, I prefer all methodologies when it comes to aggregating factual information from a wide variety of sources. Conceptually, your method sounds better because of the variety of sources.

        Yet how come no other respectable academic outside Ukraine/Russia is saying that 90% of the rebels are Ukrainian and that this is a Ukrainian civil war?

        Also Paul, you’ve worked in the military – you know that commanders rarely, if ever, publicly divulge the sources of their information.

        So your remarks were a HUGE problem for the average viewer in the West. If we were to accept that your observations of events are correct:

        – Russian army not in Ukraine prior to March 2014
        – Russia not involved in starting the war in Donbas
        – 90% of the rebels are Ukrainian
        – This is a Ukrainian civil war
        – Majority of equipment seized from Ukrainian army
        – Russia is not leading the war against Ukraine
        – No Russian front line troops fighting in Ukraine
        – Maidan did not represent a popular uprising
        – Poroshenko government illigitimate because overthrow of Yanukovych was illegal
        – Russia can out escalate the West with unlimited resources
        – Ukrainian propaganda is largely to blame for disinformation
        – Russia had no secret war plan to invade Ukraine
        etc.

        … one would be forced to conclude that Gen. Clark. Pres. Obama, etc. statements about Ukraine at best are misleading, or at worst, they are lying. To me this simply defies credulity.

        Also you do not address the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine. This behaviour is consistant given Russia’s two wars against Chechya, and wars/aggression against Georgia, Moldova, etc.

        I’m not sure I can accept any of this. True, Ukrainians are having a tough time ridding their country of corruption while simultaneously fighting an aggressive neighbour who invaded her country with superior armed forces (and violated the 1994 Budapest Memorandum). But that doesn’t mean that truth isn’t on Ukraine’s side.

        We have to move from spectacle, entertaining debate, and political infotainment, to clinical facts and reality.

        If you could defeat (or at least think you could defeat) every single counterpoint to President Obama, Gen. Clark, Timothy Snyder I would tape it.

        Like

      4. Vasyl, other respectable academics are saying these things. Read, for instance, Richard Sakwa’s book ‘Frontline Ukraine’, or read this report by Serhiy Kudelia from September 2014, which says that the Donbass insurgency is ‘primarily a homegrown phenomenon’: http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/domestic-sources-donbas-insurgency Look also at what people like Voldymyr Ishchenko, Nicolai Petro, Gordon Hahn, etc are writing. For instance, take these papers delivered at the University of Ottawa last November: https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2014/11/18/debating-the-war-in-ukraine/

        I don’t claim that Clark etc are lying: they are just parroting what they have been told by a single biased source – the Ukrainian government – without bothering to check facts. By contrast, what I write and say on these things is backed by solid research. I don’t make any claims that I can’t support, and where I don’t know or am uncertain, I say so.

        Paul

        Like

    1. But is Europe a meaningful geographical area? Or is it just a peninsula of Asia? ‘Europe’ could be said to be a psychological construct, as is the idea of the ‘West’. Whether Russia is part of it or not, is an entirely subjective judgement.

      Like

  10. Vasyl, you write:

    ”We have to move from spectacle, entertaining debate, and political infotainment, to clinical facts and reality”

    And I agree with you completely! Let’s do it!

    You’ve been already answered that. Yes, indeed some other “respectable academic outside Ukraine/Russia” are supporting basically what Paul are saying here.

    You are also claiming that:

    “…Russia invaded Ukraine. This behaviour is consistant given Russia’s two wars against Chechya, and wars/aggression against Georgia, Moldova, etc.”

    Well, you said it yourself – “clinical facts and reality” only!

    – Please, Vasyl, can you tell us all how Yeltsin’s first war against Chechnya is any different than the so-called ATO started by the acting president Turchinov?

    – As for the second war in Chechnya, care to remind us all how it began? Or into what have Chechnya transformed by that time? Surely, you won’t support the existence of a state that was a real life precursor to the ISIS.

    – You are talking about “wars/aggression” against Georgia. Probably, you are meaning the 2008 August war, which began with Saakashvili’s shelling of Tskhinval, which resulted in numerous deaths of civilians here. And in deaths of Russian peacekeepers. Surely, Vasyl, you’d probably wanted for Russia to let it slide don’t react at all. But the simple reality is Russia is not a pushover.

    – As for your claims about “war/aggression” of Russia against Moldavia – honestly, I’m at a loss here. I have no idea at a all (if we are still talking about clinical facts and reality“) that Russian actions in Transdniestria (attacked by Moldovan government) could be interpreted as “aggression”.

    Your next paragraph is so beautiful that I’ll quote it entirely:

    “I’m not sure I can accept any of this. True, Ukrainians are having a tough time ridding their country of corruption while simultaneously fighting an aggressive neighbour who invaded her country with superior armed forces (and violated the 1994 Budapest Memorandum). But that doesn’t mean that truth isn’t on Ukraine’s side.”

    This is rather… interesting view on the life. Vasyl, please, can you elaborate a little bit here? Are you actually implying that Putin makes the Ukrainian officials to steal, embezzle and generally be corrupt? Because great democrat, liberal and corruption fighter Mikheil Saakashvili, now tirelessly rooting out corruption in Odessa’s oblast, bla,es not some “Russian aggression”but the government of Ukraine itself.

    As for the so much mentioning Budapest Momorandum – Vasyl, can you remind us all when did Russia ratified said international treaty? I’d really appreciate that.

    As for your claim that “truth is on Ukraine’s side” – hey, Vasyl, I thought we all in agreement here that we are dealing with “clinical facts and reality”, not wishful thinking.

    Like

  11. My mother is from Poltava, my father from historic Pereyaslav-Khmelnitsky. They were Ukrainian and both spoke Russian and Ukrainian; their religious background was Orthodox. I was born in Canada and raised speaking Russian (in addition to English!), because Russian is the literary language of my original culture, according to my parents. If I had been born in Ukraine, my second language would be Ukrainian because it is the colloquial language. Why did Ukraine embark on a forced Ukrainization of its citizens since independence? My relatives now living in Zaporozhye, Donbass, and Kiev are horrified that their children are forced to read Ukrainian translations of Gogol, who wrote in Russian. Why is the present-day Ukrainian population being deprived of the rich heritage of its shared origins with the Russian culture, with the Eastern Orthodox Slavs? This policy appears artificial and forced, and is leading to the cultural impoverishment of these Ukrainians. Perhaps, indeed, Ukraine should be divided, with the border separating the western Ukraine ( the Uniates primarily?) who feel more kinship perhaps with Poles and other western Slavic cultures, from the Eastern Orthodox lands of the Ukraine. There are many countries in the world today that have found peace by drawing boundaries to separate their populations according to their historical cultural/religious origins.

    Like

  12. It shouldn’t be so hard to imagine that Wesley Clark could be mistaken on this. American military intelligence hardly has a stellar record in recent history. Actually, this precise failing (the tendency to identify an “ally”, then uncritically accept any and all information they provide) has been identified before, in the case of Afghanistan. Sarah Chayes discusses in her book The Punishment of Virtue how, in the early days of the occupation of Afghanistan, America relied almost completely on Gul Agha Sherzai in the Kandahar region for both information and local political support, with disastrous consequences. The same point could be made by pointing to America’s reliance on intelligence sources of extremely dubious reliability in preparing the political ground for the Iraq War. An argument with the structure “The American military says it, so it must be true, ” is a very weak argument indeed.

    Like

  13. Paul, you may be a historian, but you look/think toward the future. No? Ukraine has finally taken care of Yanukovych and the $100B+ he stole (along with his oligarchs) from Ukraine and her people. To be sure, there is a lot of “top-down” and “bottom-up” scrubbing to do, which may take another generation or two, but otherwise, the revolution has been cast and there is no turning back (thank God).

    Time to focus on taking out Putin, Medvedev, his buddies, and how they have looted Russia. Just get it done. Stop distracting the public or your circle here on this blog with “Ukraine”, “Europe”, “evil USA/evil West” or some other scapegoat. If you need a hand, give us a call.

    Like

    1. Vasyl,, Tragically, it is naive to think that Ukraine is free of oligarchs. It has just alternated between Yushchenko’s westward looking oligarchs, hoping to get more from such an alliance, and Yanukovich’s eastward leaning game. Ukraine did not yet learn to be a country, it operated like a collection of feifdoms and the oligarchs stole to enrich themselves, having no respect for their own people and their rich multifaceted Slavic culture. Don’t blame Putin, look at your own corrupt leaders and oligarchs. My 100% Ukrainian Orthodox relatives from Donbass are greatly relieved to have found refuge in Putin’s land, where they could find work and speak Russian and Ukrainian as they wished. Putin may not be perfect, but he cleaned up the game in Russia to a certain stage of stability, and he preserved the nation’s sovereignty. No debts to IMF, European banks, or Wall Street for Russia. They still have a cultural and a scientific life. I wish the same for Ukraine, And then, with time, both Russia and Ukraine can move on to an even more evolved stage. Here is a joke that a friend of mine heard when in Armenia during the latest (2014) Maidan. It’s very sarcastic, but the point is no one will save you (but you yourselves).

      Вступила Украина в ЕС. Сидят два кума-хохла выпивают. Один спрашивает:
      – Ну, шо?
      – Да фигня этот ЕС! Я без работы сижу, жена в Италии полы моет. Сын вышел замуж за немца. Дочка проститутка во Франции. А виноваты во всём москали! Говорили нам: «Не ходите в ЕС, не ходите в ЕС!» Знали, хитрые подлюки, шо мы назло им всё сделаем!

      Like

    2. Vasyl, can you answer some questions, please?

      Ukraine has finally taken care of Yanukovych and the $100B+ he stole (along with his oligarchs) from Ukraine and her people.

      Okay. And who is stealing money from Ukraine and her people now?

      To be sure, there is a lot of “top-down” and “bottom-up” scrubbing to do, which may take another generation or two, but otherwise, the revolution has been cast and there is no turning back (thank God)

      Are you aware that exact same sentiments (with “no turning back now”) have been present after the Orange Revolution?

      Time to focus on taking out Putin, Medvedev, his buddies, and how they have looted Russia. Just get it done… If you need a hand, give us a call.

      It was my understanding that you are Canadian citizen. Are you claiming now that you are Ukraine resident and that you took part in the EuroMaidan? Also – are you agitating for the overthrow of the legitimate government of another countr?

      I will really appreciate your answers, Vasyl.

      Like

  14. 988 AD: Kyiv, Ukraine is a bustling European tade route and cosmopolitan city home to 100,000+ people. Moscow, Russia did not exist for another 200+ years.

    Do the math.

    Maidan is coming for you Putin!

    Euromaidan Press Euromaidan ePoshta – eПоштa The Independent Ukrainian Newspaper – Незалежний Tижневик Ukrainian Canadian Congress KyivPost.com Ukrainian Canadian Ukrainian National Federation Of Canada

    Like

    1. Vasyl, can you source the claim that Kiev’s population in 988 was indeed 100 000? Also – I never knew, that in X c. there were such Medieval European states like “Ukraine” or “Russia”. Can you source these claims too?

      Besides that – can you answer my questions and counter-arguments that I’ve made here (https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2015/09/02/mwg-o-goffi/comment-page-1/#comment-1005)?

      Finally – care to elaborate how does Maidan “coming for Putin”?

      Like

      1. Vasyl appears to be an adherent of the “older = better” school of nationalism, usually trotted out when arguments relating to the present day start to fail.

        To be totally fair and non-partisan, I should point out that Russians like to do this against the USA (“only around for 2xx years – what do they know?”). And it’s just as irrelevant.

        Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s